[ProAudio] [ProAud] The High-Resolution Challenge
Bob Katz
bobkatz at digido.com
Tue Feb 11 10:28:20 EST 2020
Come on, guys.... We've been down this road in this reflector several
times. You may recall at least one of the tests I worked on with some of
you many years ago. I've subsequently performed differently-designed
tests designed to try to settle the issue of "bandwidth", and each time
the listening tests lead to the same conclusions:
Thus I am 99.9999999% convinced that the sonic differences between
sample rates are not due to the bandwidth, but rather to the performance
of the converters themselves. Unfortunately, the bandwidth mafia at HD
Tracks keeps maintaining the illusion that what we can see has anything
to do with what we can hear. And I hope that JJ does not make his
application because it will continue to mislead the public.
In Bob Stuart's paper, which is open access so you do not have to be an
AES member to download this:
J. R. Stuart and P. G. Craven, “The Gentle Art of Dithering” J. Audio
Eng. Soc., vol. 67, no. 5, pp. 278–299, (2019 May.). DOI:
https://doi.org/10.17743/jaes.2019.0011
he points out on page 290 the number of decimators and upsampling
filters that occur in typical chip-based converters. And that these
stages are not dithered. And that there are fewer of these stages when
the converters are used at a higher sample rate. Smoking gun....
In a conversation I had with him at the New York AES last year, I told
him that I discovered that audio sounds superior in many current
converters if you upsample it and reproduce it at the higher rate. I
also told him of my experiments showing that if you start with, for
example, a 96 kHz recording, downsample it to 44.1 k and then reupsample
it to 96k, that it sounds identical to the original, but the 44.1 k
intermediate stage sounds worse, smaller and less resolved. In my book,
I point out: How can a second generation in a chain sound worse than the
third generation?
Bob Stuart's explanation for this phenomenon is the design of the
converters themselves.
Thus my conclusion that the DACs perform better at the higher sample
rate. Stuart explained that when the converters work at a higher sample
rate, the audio goes through fewer stages of either decimation or
upsampling, and that these stages are typically not dithered. The fewer
of these stages, the better the audio sounds. So, folks, it's not the
bandwidth that makes the higher sample rates sound better, it's the
internal design of the converters themselves.
Note that in one or more of his MQA papers Stuart describes the
processes' restoration of high frequency information "just in case" but
acknowledges that it may not be necessary. Like chicken soup, keeping
the extra high frequency information couldn't hurt (except for wasting
storage space and processing time). But I am resentful that many of my
great-sounding masters that I have worked so carefully to make them
sound better, including upsampling before processing --- have to be
downsampled in order to be released on HD tracks because of the high res
mafia.
BK
On 2/11/20 1:28 AM, James Johnston via ProAudio wrote:
> I must say that I am sorely tempted to see if I can get somebody to
> whip up an app that measures effective bandwidth of a PCM track at any
> common sampling rate.
>
> On Mon, Feb 10, 2020 at 10:15 PM mark whitehouse via ProAudio
> <proaudio at bach.pgm.com <mailto:proaudio at bach.pgm.com>> wrote:
>
> Following on from our discussion of around 18 months ago,
> I know in Australia there were moves to get some kind of "truth in
> marketing"
> in regards to High sample rate recordings.
> And promoting the differences in standards that are now available.
>
> Essentially a standard that could be understood by and promoted to
> consumers, musicians etc.
>
> It doesnt seem to have gone far and when you see things like this
> http://archimago.blogspot.com/2013/07/list-suspected-44-or-48khz-pcm.html
>
>
> It makes you wonder if things will improve.
> Is there any consensus on getting this acknowledged?
>
> regards
> Mark
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> On Fri, Jun 15, 2018 at 8:25 AM Mark Waldrep
> <mwaldrep at aixmediagroup.com <mailto:mwaldrep at aixmediagroup.com>>
> wrote:
>
> In the interest of exploring the issue of perceptibility of
> high-resolution vs. Redbook versions of the exact same file,
> I've posted on my blog page today "The High-Resolution Audio
> Challenge". I've prepared 6 of my AIX Records native 96
> kHz/24-bit PCM masters as A and B versions. One is the
> original high-res master and the other is a Redbook
> downconversion. You are welcome to download the files and play
> them. Please do not share them outside of the group. I'm
> conducting a casual survey to see if people can detect
> differences. I don't claim this will be definitive. However,
> I've always complained that previous tests failed because the
> source materials weren't actual high-resolution files. This
> removes that flaw. These are the real deal. The conversion was
> done using triangular dither and noise shaping.
>
> You can find the article at http://www.realhd-audio.com/?p=6197
>
> Mark Waldrep, Ph.D.
> AIX Records and author of
> Music and Audio: A User Guide To Better Sound
>
>
> On 6/14/18, 3:13 PM, "Stephen Morley"
> <proaudio-bounces at bach.pgm.com
> <mailto:proaudio-bounces at bach.pgm.com> on behalf of
> stephenmorley at iprimus.com.au
> <mailto:stephenmorley at iprimus.com.au>> wrote:
>
> I can record DXD and the downsample in Pyramix, or else at
> 192/24 and then downsample to 44/24
> -------- Original message --------From: James Johnston
> <audioskeptic at gmail.com <mailto:audioskeptic at gmail.com>> Date:
> 14/6/18 8:56 pm (GMT+10:00) To: proaudio at bach.pgm.com
> <mailto:proaudio at bach.pgm.com> Subject: Re: [ProAud] Wow.
> 384/32 LPCM!
> Just make sure the content is identical on both.
>
> On Thu, Jun 14, 2018 at 2:36 AM, Stephen Morley <
> stephenmorley at iprimus.com.au
> <mailto:stephenmorley at iprimus.com.au>> wrote:
>
> > Hi James,I could send something, but not until next week
> when I return
> > from leave.Stephen
> > -------- Original message --------From: James Johnston <
> > audioskeptic at gmail.com <mailto:audioskeptic at gmail.com>>
> Date: 13/6/18 8:53 am (GMT+10:00) To:
> > proaudio at bach.pgm.com <mailto:proaudio at bach.pgm.com>
> Subject: Re: [ProAud] Wow. 384/32 LPCM!
> > I'll repeat my request:
> >
> > Send me some recordings at 24/192 and a similar one at
> 44/16. I can and
> > will measure the actual "information" present, via SFM
> and bit depth.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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> >
>
>
>
> --
> James D. (jj) Johnston
> Independent Audio and Electroacoustics Consultant
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> --
> James D. (jj) Johnston
> Independent Audio and Electroacoustics Consultant
>
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--
If you want good sound on your album, come to Bob Katz 407-831-0233
DIGITAL DOMAIN MASTERING STUDIO Author: *Mastering Audio* Digital Domain
Website <https://www.digido.com/> No trees were killed in the sending of
this message. However a large number of electrons were terribly
inconvenienced.
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