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<p>Come on, guys.... We've been down this road in this reflector
several times. You may recall at least one of the tests I worked
on with some of you many years ago. I've subsequently performed
differently-designed tests designed to try to settle the issue of
"bandwidth", and each time the listening tests lead to the same
conclusions:<br>
</p>
<p>Thus I am 99.9999999% convinced that the sonic differences
between sample rates are not due to the bandwidth, but rather to
the performance of the converters themselves. Unfortunately, the
bandwidth mafia at HD Tracks keeps maintaining the illusion that
what we can see has anything to do with what we can hear. And I
hope that JJ does not make his application because it will
continue to mislead the public. <br>
</p>
<p>In Bob Stuart's paper, which is open access so you do not have to
be an AES member to download this:</p>
<p> J. R. Stuart and P. G. Craven, “The Gentle Art of Dithering”
J. Audio Eng. Soc., vol. 67, no. 5, pp. 278–299, (2019 May.).
DOI: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://doi.org/10.17743/jaes.2019.0011">https://doi.org/10.17743/jaes.2019.0011</a></p>
<p>he points out on page 290 the number of decimators and upsampling
filters that occur in typical chip-based converters. And that
these stages are not dithered. And that there are fewer of these
stages when the converters are used at a higher sample rate.
Smoking gun.... <br>
</p>
In a conversation I had with him at the New York AES last year, I
told him that I discovered that audio sounds superior in many
current converters if you upsample it and reproduce it at the higher
rate. I also told him of my experiments showing that if you start
with, for example, a 96 kHz recording, downsample it to 44.1 k and
then reupsample it to 96k, that it sounds identical to the original,
but the 44.1 k intermediate stage sounds worse, smaller and less
resolved. In my book, I point out: How can a second generation in a
chain sound worse than the third generation? <br>
<p>Bob Stuart's explanation for this phenomenon is the design of the
converters themselves. <br>
</p>
<p>Thus my conclusion that the DACs perform better at the higher
sample rate. Stuart explained that when the converters work at a
higher sample rate, the audio goes through fewer stages of either
decimation or upsampling, and that these stages are typically not
dithered. The fewer of these stages, the better the audio sounds.
So, folks, it's not the bandwidth that makes the higher sample
rates sound better, it's the internal design of the converters
themselves. <br>
</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Note that in one or more of his MQA papers Stuart describes the
processes' restoration of high frequency information "just in
case" but acknowledges that it may not be necessary. Like chicken
soup, keeping the extra high frequency information couldn't hurt
(except for wasting storage space and processing time). But I am
resentful that many of my great-sounding masters that I have
worked so carefully to make them sound better, including
upsampling before processing --- have to be downsampled in order
to be released on HD tracks because of the high res mafia. <br>
</p>
<br>
<p>BK<br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/11/20 1:28 AM, James Johnston via
ProAudio wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAO2qRdPAazFEjNCLjXNfMiY38_2Hy+DF6tMo6z2PD4cJ6zBVjg@mail.gmail.com">
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<div>I must say that I am sorely tempted to see if I can get
somebody to whip up an app that measures effective bandwidth
of a PCM track at any common sampling rate.<br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Feb 10, 2020 at 10:15
PM mark whitehouse via ProAudio <<a
href="mailto:proaudio@bach.pgm.com" moz-do-not-send="true">proaudio@bach.pgm.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">Following on from our discussion of around 18
months ago,
<div>I know in Australia there were moves to get some kind
of "truth in marketing" </div>
<div>in regards to High sample rate recordings.</div>
<div>And promoting the differences in standards that are now
available. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Essentially a standard that could be understood by and
promoted to consumers, musicians etc.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>It doesnt seem to have gone far and when you see things
like this</div>
<div><a
href="http://archimago.blogspot.com/2013/07/list-suspected-44-or-48khz-pcm.html"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://archimago.blogspot.com/2013/07/list-suspected-44-or-48khz-pcm.html</a> </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>It makes you wonder if things will improve.</div>
<div>Is there any consensus on getting this acknowledged? </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>regards</div>
<div>Mark <br clear="all">
<div>
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<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Jun 15, 2018 at
8:25 AM Mark Waldrep <<a
href="mailto:mwaldrep@aixmediagroup.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">mwaldrep@aixmediagroup.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">In the interest of
exploring the issue of perceptibility of high-resolution
vs. Redbook versions of the exact same file, I've posted
on my blog page today "The High-Resolution Audio
Challenge". I've prepared 6 of my AIX Records native 96
kHz/24-bit PCM masters as A and B versions. One is the
original high-res master and the other is a Redbook
downconversion. You are welcome to download the files and
play them. Please do not share them outside of the group.
I'm conducting a casual survey to see if people can detect
differences. I don't claim this will be definitive.
However, I've always complained that previous tests failed
because the source materials weren't actual
high-resolution files. This removes that flaw. These are
the real deal. The conversion was done using triangular
dither and noise shaping.<br>
<br>
You can find the article at <a
href="http://www.realhd-audio.com/?p=6197"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.realhd-audio.com/?p=6197</a><br>
<br>
Mark Waldrep, Ph.D.<br>
AIX Records and author of<br>
Music and Audio: A User Guide To Better Sound<br>
<br>
<br>
On 6/14/18, 3:13 PM, "Stephen Morley" <<a
href="mailto:proaudio-bounces@bach.pgm.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">proaudio-bounces@bach.pgm.com</a>
on behalf of <a
href="mailto:stephenmorley@iprimus.com.au"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">stephenmorley@iprimus.com.au</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
I can record DXD and the downsample in Pyramix, or
else at 192/24 and then downsample to 44/24<br>
-------- Original message --------From: James Johnston
<<a href="mailto:audioskeptic@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">audioskeptic@gmail.com</a>>
Date: 14/6/18 8:56 pm (GMT+10:00) To: <a
href="mailto:proaudio@bach.pgm.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">proaudio@bach.pgm.com</a>
Subject: Re: [ProAud] Wow. 384/32 LPCM! <br>
Just make sure the content is identical on both.<br>
<br>
On Thu, Jun 14, 2018 at 2:36 AM, Stephen Morley <<br>
<a href="mailto:stephenmorley@iprimus.com.au"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">stephenmorley@iprimus.com.au</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
> Hi James,I could send something, but not until
next week when I return<br>
> from leave.Stephen<br>
> -------- Original message --------From: James
Johnston <<br>
> <a href="mailto:audioskeptic@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">audioskeptic@gmail.com</a>>
Date: 13/6/18 8:53 am (GMT+10:00) To:<br>
> <a href="mailto:proaudio@bach.pgm.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">proaudio@bach.pgm.com</a>
Subject: Re: [ProAud] Wow. 384/32 LPCM!<br>
> I'll repeat my request:<br>
><br>
> Send me some recordings at 24/192 and a similar
one at 44/16. I can and<br>
> will measure the actual "information" present,
via SFM and bit depth.<br>
><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
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<br>
-- <br>
James D. (jj) Johnston<br>
Independent Audio and Electroacoustics Consultant<br>
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-- <br>
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature">
<div>James D. (jj) Johnston</div>
<div>Independent Audio and Electroacoustics Consultant</div>
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