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<p>Hi Bill,</p>
<p>I don't know about the future, but much of what is going on is
digital, and for many good reasons. Digital offers memory, noise
immunity, duplication, long distance communications... Analog is
difficult and complex. Digital deals with 0 and 1. Those are
different worlds. So for the most part the world is going digital
but mother nature is analog (not getting into quantum physics). So
an old guy like me, from a mostly analog world is dealing with the
translation to and from digital. But I am not surprised that most
of the focus is on digital.</p>
<p>Regarding the comment about the AI: There is a professor at UC
Berkeley named Michael I. Jordan. He is a top notch expert in
machine learning. He is brilliant. He got the IEE award last year
and so on (very interesting academic background)... He said that
people talk about AI as if it there, but it does not exist. It is
all machine learning. So AI may be another hype.<br>
</p>
<p>Regards</p>
<p>Dan Lavry<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 6/14/2021 8:29 PM, Bill Whitlock via
ProAudio wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:975377134.101706.1623727797600@mail.yahoo.com">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div style="color:black;font: 12pt Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;">This
data sheet has become the new typical for TI ... I, too, used to
respect the company ... but apparently all the analog people
have departed. My first experience was with a similar chip in
the older TLV320 series. The analog input specs and
applications are like a page in a textbook that says "the
solution to this problem is left to the reader as an exercise."
The data sheet for the PCM6240 is an analog joke! Having
recently done a project with electret mics an almost-identical
CODEC in a Bluetooth module, I can tell you that the "mic" they
talk about is an electret mic. The "load" resistors set the DC
operating point of the mic. It's not about power transfer, it's
about "bias" (the chip's "bias" output is generally the output
of a very low-noise linear regulator (in the Bluetooth module my
client chose, made by SiLabs. Buried deep in its 70-page data
sheet was advice to not use its internal "bias" regulator make
one externally.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>In my experience, the suppliers of cheap electret mics are
completely clueless. They'll tell you that supply voltage can
be 1.5 to 6 V but that the load resistor should be, say 1 kΩ
(with no explanation). In fact, the pins on the mic are the
source and drain of the internal FET. In the engineering
world, a FET data sheet would list Idss (drain current at zero
gate voltage) and maximum drain voltage, among other things.
The "recommended" load is chosen for the lowest supply
voltage, which also results in the lowest sensitivity for the
mic. So I measured the drain current vs voltage for 10
samples to determine Idss = 450 µA and max drain voltage is 7
V for the part. Knowing that, I used a 6 V supply and a load
resistor 3 times the value of the "recommended" - which
resulted in perfect class A operating point (drain voltage =
1/2 of supply) and a 10 dB increase in sensitivity.
Apparently, the manufacturers of these $1 mics think their
customers are all just hobbyists and don't want to confuse
them with real specs. And TI follows suit in their
application notes, again without explanation. Apparently, when
an IC has on-board digital processing, the bit-heads get to
write the data sheets! I just hope the analog ignorance
doesn't leak over into the LTC products ... I have a lot of
respect for the innovative engineers there.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I think, in some cases, we're dealing with the fact that
analog design has fallen out of favor with universities and
sold students on the idea that "the future is digital" ...
but, as AI gets better won't they start writing code? As I
used to say in the 80s, "programmers will become the typists
of the 21st century."</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Ah, now I feel better ...</div>
<div>Bill Whitlock</div>
<div>Ventura, CA<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<div
style="font-family:arial,helvetica;font-size:10pt;color:black"><font
size="2">-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Dan Lavry via ProAudio <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:proaudio@bach.pgm.com"><proaudio@bach.pgm.com></a><br>
To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:proaudio@bach.pgm.com">proaudio@bach.pgm.com</a><br>
Sent: Mon, Jun 14, 2021 7:48 pm<br>
Subject: Re: [ProAudio] Microphones question<br>
<br>
<div id="yiv9484434567">
<div>
<div>We are talking about audio fiction, so here we
go:</div>
<div>A new (year old) TI AD IC, the <span dir="ltr"
style="font-size:14.6667px;font-family:sans-serif;">PCM6240-Q1</span><span
dir="ltr"
style="font-size:14.6667px;font-family:sans-serif;">,
on figure 37 of the data sheet states:</span></div>
<div><font size="+3"><span dir="ltr"
style="font-size:14.6667px;font-family:sans-serif;"><span
dir="ltr"
style="font-size:14.6667px;font-family:sans-serif;">Figure</span><span
dir="ltr"
style="font-size:14.6667px;font-family:sans-serif;">37
and Figure</span><span dir="ltr"
style="font-size:14.6667px;font-family:sans-serif;">38
show </span><span dir="ltr"
style="font-size:14.6667px;font-family:sans-serif;">how
to connect </span><span dir="ltr"
style="font-size:14.6667px;font-family:sans-serif;">a
DC-coupled </span><span dir="ltr"
style="font-size:14.6667px;font-family:sans-serif;">microphone
</span><span dir="ltr"
style="font-size:14.6667px;font-family:sans-serif;">for
a differential</span><span dir="ltr"
style="font-size:14.6667px;font-family:sans-serif;">
and single-ended</span><span dir="ltr"
style="font-size:14.6667px;font-family:sans-serif;">
input,</span><span dir="ltr"
style="font-size:14.6667px;font-family:sans-serif;">respectively.</span><span
dir="ltr"
style="font-size:14.6667px;font-family:sans-serif;">
The</span><span dir="ltr"
style="font-size:14.6667px;font-family:sans-serif;">
value </span><span dir="ltr"
style="font-size:14.6667px;font-family:sans-serif;">of
the external</span><span dir="ltr"
style="font-size:14.6667px;font-family:sans-serif;">
bias </span><span dir="ltr"
style="font-size:14.6667px;font-family:sans-serif;">resistor,</span><span
dir="ltr"
style="font-size:14.6667px;font-family:sans-serif;">R1,
must </span><span dir="ltr"
style="font-size:14.6667px;font-family:sans-serif;">be
appropriately </span><span dir="ltr"
style="font-size:14.6667px;font-family:sans-serif;">chosen
</span><span dir="ltr"
style="font-size:14.6667px;font-family:sans-serif;">based</span><span
dir="ltr"
style="font-size:14.6667px;font-family:sans-serif;">
upon </span><span dir="ltr"
style="font-size:14.6667px;font-family:sans-serif;">the</span><span
dir="ltr"
style="font-size:14.6667px;font-family:sans-serif;">
microphone </span><span dir="ltr"
style="font-size:14.6667px;font-family:sans-serif;">impedance.
</span><span dir="ltr"
style="font-size:14.6667px;font-family:sans-serif;">For
a differential </span><span dir="ltr"
style="font-size:14.6667px;font-family:sans-serif;">input,</span><span
dir="ltr"
style="font-size:14.6667px;font-family:sans-serif;">the
value </span><span dir="ltr"
style="font-size:14.6667px;font-family:sans-serif;">of
the external</span><span dir="ltr"
style="font-size:14.6667px;font-family:sans-serif;">
bias </span><span dir="ltr"
style="font-size:14.6667px;font-family:sans-serif;">resistor
</span><span dir="ltr"
style="font-size:14.6667px;font-family:sans-serif;">is
recommended</span><span dir="ltr"
style="font-size:14.6667px;font-family:sans-serif;">
to be</span><span dir="ltr"
style="font-size:14.6667px;font-family:sans-serif;">
used </span><span dir="ltr"
style="font-size:14.6667px;font-family:sans-serif;">for
half of the microphone </span><span dir="ltr"
style="font-size:14.6667px;font-family:sans-serif;">impedance,</span><span
dir="ltr"
style="font-size:14.6667px;font-family:sans-serif;">whereas
</span><span dir="ltr"
style="font-size:14.6667px;font-family:sans-serif;">for
a single-ended </span><span dir="ltr"
style="font-size:14.6667px;font-family:sans-serif;">input,</span><span
dir="ltr"
style="font-size:14.6667px;font-family:sans-serif;">the
external</span><span dir="ltr"
style="font-size:14.6667px;font-family:sans-serif;">
bias</span><span dir="ltr"
style="font-size:14.6667px;font-family:sans-serif;">
resistor </span><span dir="ltr"
style="font-size:14.6667px;font-family:sans-serif;">is
</span><span dir="ltr"
style="font-size:14.6667px;font-family:sans-serif;">recommended</span><span
dir="ltr"
style="font-size:14.6667px;font-family:sans-serif;">
to be the same </span><span dir="ltr"
style="font-size:14.6667px;font-family:sans-serif;">as
the microphone </span><span dir="ltr"
style="font-size:14.6667px;font-family:sans-serif;">impedance.</span></span></font></div>
<div><font size="+3"><span dir="ltr"
style="font-size:14.6667px;font-family:sans-serif;"><span
dir="ltr"
style="font-size:14.6667px;font-family:sans-serif;">They
are advocating matching the load to the mic
output impedance (obviously for maximum power
transfer). That optimal setup is of course
only true if the mic could support such load
while "behaving well" (linearly, no clipping
or other issues). <br clear="none">
</span></span></font></div>
<div><font size="+3"><span dir="ltr"
style="font-size:14.6667px;font-family:sans-serif;"><span
dir="ltr"
style="font-size:14.6667px;font-family:sans-serif;">I
do respect TI. It is a good company with good
reputation. So can we sort out facts from
fiction? I think the answer is simple, but I
will let you experts debate it if you wish. I
am logging off for now, I am starting to feel
like an old guy talking too much, and this
"mic loading" is a whole other issue...<br
clear="none">
</span></span></font></div>
<div><font size="+3"><span dir="ltr"
style="font-size:14.6667px;font-family:sans-serif;"><span
dir="ltr"
style="font-size:14.6667px;font-family:sans-serif;">Regards</span></span></font></div>
<div><font size="+3"><span dir="ltr"
style="font-size:14.6667px;font-family:sans-serif;"><span
dir="ltr"
style="font-size:14.6667px;font-family:sans-serif;">Dan
Lavry<br clear="none">
</span></span></font></div>
<div><font size="+3"><span dir="ltr"
style="font-size:14.6667px;font-family:sans-serif;"><span
dir="ltr"
style="font-size:14.6667px;font-family:sans-serif;"><br
clear="none">
</span></span></font></div>
<div><span dir="ltr"
style="font-size:14.6667px;font-family:sans-serif;"><br
clear="none">
</span></div>
<div><span dir="ltr"
style="font-size:14.6667px;font-family:sans-serif;"><br
clear="none">
</span></div>
<div class="yiv9484434567yqt2774439080"
id="yiv9484434567yqt46091">
<div class="yiv9484434567moz-cite-prefix">On
6/14/2021 3:48 PM, Bill Whitlock via ProAudio
wrote:<br clear="none">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"> </blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<div class="yiv9484434567yqt2774439080"
id="yiv9484434567yqt79318">
<div>
<div style="color:black;font:12pt Arial, Helvetica,
sans-serif;">The following article, "11 Myths
about Analog Noise Analysis," is a great read for
most of the topics raised in this thread:
<div><br clear="none">
<div><a rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer"
shape="rect"
class="yiv9484434567moz-txt-link-freetext"
target="_blank"
href="https://www.analog.com/en/technical-articles/11-myths-about-analog-noise-analysis.html#"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.analog.com/en/technical-articles/11-myths-about-analog-noise-analysis.html#</a></div>
<div><br clear="none">
</div>
<div>Bill Whitlock</div>
<div><br clear="none">
</div>
<div><br clear="none">
<div style="font-family:arial,
helvetica;font-size:10pt;color:black;"><font
size="2">-----Original Message-----<br
clear="none">
From: Dan Lavry via ProAudio <a
rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer"
shape="rect"
class="yiv9484434567moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
ymailto="mailto:proaudio@bach.pgm.com"
target="_blank"
href="mailto:proaudio@bach.pgm.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"><proaudio@bach.pgm.com></a><br
clear="none">
To: David Josephson <a rel="nofollow
noopener noreferrer" shape="rect"
class="yiv9484434567moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
ymailto="mailto:dlj@josephson.com"
target="_blank"
href="mailto:dlj@josephson.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"><dlj@josephson.com></a>;
<a rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer"
shape="rect"
class="yiv9484434567moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
ymailto="mailto:proaudio@bach.pgm.com"
target="_blank"
href="mailto:proaudio@bach.pgm.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">proaudio@bach.pgm.com</a><br
clear="none">
Sent: Mon, Jun 14, 2021 1:14 pm<br
clear="none">
Subject: Re: [ProAudio] Microphones
question<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
</font>
<div id="yiv9484434567">
<div>
<div>Yes, we have to pick our battles.
The 150 Ohm that is talking about has
near 0 DC.</div>
<div>But the 6.8K resistor to 48V
phantom your mic is connected to has
DC... that is where material may
matter. </div>
<div>Yes, there is more to learn every
day...</div>
<div> Regards</div>
<div>Dan Lavry</div>
<div><br clear="none">
</div>
<div><br clear="none">
</div>
<div><br clear="none">
</div>
<div><br clear="none">
</div>
<div
id="yiv9484434567composer_signature">
<div
style="font-size:85%;color:#575757;">Sent
from Samsung Galaxy smartphone.</div>
</div>
<div><br clear="none">
</div>
<div><br clear="none">
</div>
<div
style="font-size:100%;color:#000000;"
align="left">
<div
class="yiv9484434567yqt7917953232"
id="yiv9484434567yqtfd59882">
<div>-------- Original message
--------</div>
<div>From: David Josephson via
ProAudio <a rel="nofollow
noopener noreferrer"
shape="rect"
class="yiv9484434567moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
ymailto="mailto:proaudio@bach.pgm.com" target="_blank"
href="mailto:proaudio@bach.pgm.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"><proaudio@bach.pgm.com></a>
</div>
<div>Date: 6/14/21 12:11 PM
(GMT-08:00) </div>
<div>To: <a rel="nofollow noopener
noreferrer" shape="rect"
class="yiv9484434567moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
ymailto="mailto:proaudio@bach.pgm.com" target="_blank"
href="mailto:proaudio@bach.pgm.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">proaudio@bach.pgm.com</a>
</div>
<div>Subject: Re: [ProAudio]
Microphones question </div>
<div><br clear="none">
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="yiv9484434567yqt7917953232"
id="yiv9484434567yqtfd98857">The
microphone measurement standard
recommends the use of A-weighted rms <br
clear="none">
noise specifications in addition to
ITU-R BS.468-4, which specifies not <br
clear="none">
only a frequency weighting curve but a
quasi-peak detector which <br
clear="none">
penalizes for low frequency pops and
clicks, which can be a factor for <br
clear="none">
some poorly executed microphone
designs.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Yes, even some of the experts in the
standards world talk about "low <br
clear="none">
noise" resistors. We have to pick our
battles.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
On 6/14/2021 12:01 PM, Dan Lavry via
ProAudio wrote:<br clear="none">
> Excess noise is important in some
cases, and it is material dependent. I
<br clear="none">
> agree that the 150 for the noise
measurement can be "any: 150 Ohm.<br
clear="none">
> <br clear="none">
> Regarding "A weighting", I just
publish both figures. In most cases it
<br clear="none">
> is 2dB difference.<br
clear="none">
> <br clear="none">
> Regards<br clear="none">
> <br clear="none">
> Dan Lavry<br clear="none">
> <br clear="none">
> On 6/14/2021 11:03 AM, Bill
Whitlock via ProAudio wrote:<br
clear="none">
>> Dan, I'm glad you caught that
one! Noise is a "stand alone" that <br
clear="none">
>> needs no reference except a
unit of measure - and, as frequently <br
clear="none">
>> omitted by marketing types, a
stated bandwidth. And I have no
problem <br clear="none">
>> in using weighted figures as
long as it's clearly stated.<br
clear="none">
>><br clear="none">
>> In my mind, the biggest
barrier to understanding noise and its
<br clear="none">
>> implications is the lies,
distortions, and half-truths
perpetrated by <br clear="none">
>> marketing folks! A
measurement, with test conditions and
references <br clear="none">
>> fully disclosed, is not
subject to interpretation. Sadly,
many folks <br clear="none">
>> are "educated" by such
misleading information and will
believe, for <br clear="none">
>> example, that the 150 Ω
resistor used for testing preamp noise
must be <br clear="none">
>> a special "low-noise"
resistor. In fact, thermal noise has
no <br clear="none">
>> dependence on the resistive
material at all. So-called
"low-noise" <br clear="none">
>> resistors are low in "excess
noise" that occurs when DC current
flows <br clear="none">
>> in it - and there's a huge
difference among those! Anyone whose
ever <br clear="none">
>> heard me lecture is well
aware that no love is lost between me
and <br clear="none">
>> marketing people.<br
clear="none">
>><br clear="none">
>> Bill Whitlock<br clear="none">
>><br clear="none">
>><br clear="none">
>> -----Original Message-----<br
clear="none">
>> From: Dan Lavry via ProAudio
<a rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer"
shape="rect"
class="yiv9484434567moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
ymailto="mailto:proaudio@bach.pgm.com" target="_blank"
href="mailto:proaudio@bach.pgm.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"><proaudio@bach.pgm.com></a><br
clear="none">
>> To: Mike Rivers <a
rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer"
shape="rect"
class="yiv9484434567moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
ymailto="mailto:mm1100@yahoo.com"
target="_blank"
href="mailto:mm1100@yahoo.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"><mm1100@yahoo.com></a>;
<a rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer"
shape="rect"
class="yiv9484434567moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
ymailto="mailto:proaudio@bach.pgm.com" target="_blank"
href="mailto:proaudio@bach.pgm.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">proaudio@bach.pgm.com</a><br
clear="none">
>> Sent: Mon, Jun 14, 2021 9:27
am<br clear="none">
>> Subject: Re: [ProAudio]
Microphones question<br clear="none">
>><br clear="none">
>> I think you are confusing
things. EIN does not need to be
measured at <br clear="none">
>> full scale, and it is a real
representative of the noise
contributions.<br clear="none">
>><br clear="none">
>> Micpre noise is low and not
easy to measure directly. Say you test
<br clear="none">
>> system can measure down to
1uV, but your signal is 0.1uV. It
would be <br clear="none">
>> difficult to measure the
noise directly. Say you set the gain
at <br clear="none">
>> 60dB, the noise will become
100uV, and a 1uV system can measure
that. <br clear="none">
>> At 40dB gain you get 10uV,
still good enough to measure. In the
first <br clear="none">
>> case Ein is 100uV/1000, in
the second case 10UV/100, both yield
0.1uV <br clear="none">
>> which is the real input
noise.<br clear="none">
>><br clear="none">
>> Of course that will not hold
if the design is poor. Any reasonable
<br clear="none">
>> design will yield very
similar ein at 60dB and 40db.<br
clear="none">
>><br clear="none">
>> Regards<br clear="none">
>> Dan Lavry<br clear="none">
>><br clear="none">
>><br clear="none">
>><br clear="none">
>><br clear="none">
>> Sent from Samsung Galaxy
smartphone.<br clear="none">
>><br clear="none">
>><br clear="none">
>> -------- Original message
--------<br clear="none">
>> From: Mike Rivers via
ProAudio <a rel="nofollow noopener
noreferrer" shape="rect"
class="yiv9484434567moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
ymailto="mailto:proaudio@bach.pgm.com" target="_blank"
href="mailto:proaudio@bach.pgm.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"><proaudio@bach.pgm.com></a><br
clear="none">
>> Date: 6/14/21 8:07 AM
(GMT-08:00)<br clear="none">
>> To: <a rel="nofollow
noopener noreferrer" shape="rect"
class="yiv9484434567moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
ymailto="mailto:proaudio@bach.pgm.com" target="_blank"
href="mailto:proaudio@bach.pgm.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">proaudio@bach.pgm.com</a><br
clear="none">
>> Subject: Re: [ProAudio]
Microphones question<br clear="none">
>><br clear="none">
>> How about a little discussion
on the value of knowing the EIN of a <br
clear="none">
>> preamp and how the figure is
useful to the designer?<br
clear="none">
>><br clear="none">
>> Here's why I ask:<br
clear="none">
>><br clear="none">
>> When I was writing reviews
regularly, EIN was (and still is)
often <br clear="none">
>> quoted in the product's
specs. The numbers ranged from -125
dBu (just <br clear="none">
>> a couple) to a majority being
either -127 or -128 dBu. Manufacturers
<br clear="none">
>> liked to tout it because it
was a nice low number with "noise" in
its <br clear="none">
>> name. And it was always
measured at a level within a dB or so
of <br clear="none">
>> clipping since that's it
looked the best.<br clear="none">
>><br clear="none">
>> But unless I missed the
appropriate chapter, EIN is a
calculated value <br clear="none">
>> - the measured noise level
with the gain subtracted out. So a
preamp <br clear="none">
>> with 60 dB of gain that
advertised EIN=-128 dBu could be
expected to <br clear="none">
>> put out -68 dBu of noise,
measured, of course to the advantage
of the <br clear="none">
>> marketing department with the
appropriate input termination (0, 100,
<br clear="none">
>> or 150 ohms usually) and
output load.<br clear="none">
>><br clear="none">
>> So, among design engineers,
what's the big deal about EIN? Is
there a <br clear="none">
>> better way of measuring it
that's more meaningful? And if you can
<br clear="none">
>> squeeze another dB of EIN out
of a design, how significant will this
<br clear="none">
>> be to the user? I<br
clear="none">
>><br clear="none">
>> , know "it depends."<br
clear="none">
>><br clear="none">
>> -- <br clear="none">
>> For a good time
callhttp://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com
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target="_blank"
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>>
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noreferrer" shape="rect"
class="yiv9484434567moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
ymailto="mailto:ProAudio@bach.pgm.com" target="_blank"
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moz-do-not-send="true">ProAudio@bach.pgm.com</a>
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ymailto="mailto:ProAudio@bach.pgm.com" target="_blank"
href="mailto:ProAudio@bach.pgm.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"><mailto:ProAudio@bach.pgm.com></a><br
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>> <a rel="nofollow noopener
noreferrer" shape="rect"
class="yiv9484434567moz-txt-link-freetext"
target="_blank"
href="http://bach.pgm.com/mailman/listinfo/proaudio"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://bach.pgm.com/mailman/listinfo/proaudio</a>
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href="mailto:ProAudio@bach.pgm.com"
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<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2><br
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<div class="yiv9484434567yqt7917953232"
id="yiv9484434567yqtfd17519">_______________________________________________<br
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ProAudio mailing list<br clear="none">
<a rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer"
shape="rect"
ymailto="mailto:ProAudio@bach.pgm.com"
target="_blank"
href="mailto:ProAudio@bach.pgm.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">ProAudio@bach.pgm.com</a><br
clear="none">
<a rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer"
shape="rect" target="_blank"
href="http://bach.pgm.com/mailman/listinfo/proaudio"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://bach.pgm.com/mailman/listinfo/proaudio</a><br
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</div>
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</div>
</div>
</div>
<br clear="none">
<fieldset class="yiv9484434567mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<pre class="yiv9484434567moz-quote-pre">_______________________________________________
ProAudio mailing list
<a rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape="rect" class="yiv9484434567moz-txt-link-abbreviated" ymailto="mailto:ProAudio@bach.pgm.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:ProAudio@bach.pgm.com" moz-do-not-send="true">ProAudio@bach.pgm.com</a>
<a rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape="rect" class="yiv9484434567moz-txt-link-freetext" target="_blank" href="http://bach.pgm.com/mailman/listinfo/proaudio" moz-do-not-send="true">http://bach.pgm.com/mailman/listinfo/proaudio</a>
</pre>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="yqt2774439080" id="yqt80081">_______________________________________________<br
clear="none">
ProAudio mailing list<br clear="none">
<a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:ProAudio@bach.pgm.com"
href="mailto:ProAudio@bach.pgm.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">ProAudio@bach.pgm.com</a><br
clear="none">
<a shape="rect"
href="http://bach.pgm.com/mailman/listinfo/proaudio"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://bach.pgm.com/mailman/listinfo/proaudio</a><br
clear="none">
</div>
</font></div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
ProAudio mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ProAudio@bach.pgm.com">ProAudio@bach.pgm.com</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://bach.pgm.com/mailman/listinfo/proaudio">http://bach.pgm.com/mailman/listinfo/proaudio</a>
</pre>
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